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	<title>Comments on: Help wanted: Seal sleuth</title>
	<link>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/</link>
	<description>Welcome to RV Weekly where the editor of RV Trade Digest will be updating you on the latest news, trends, and products important to the RV industry.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 20:09:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Bob Zagami</title>
		<link>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1656</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Zagami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1656</guid>
		<description>As we continue this discussion, I thought it might be helpful to review exactly what the RVIA Seal does stand for as published by the Go RVing campaign for consumer eduction.  It says:

The RVIA Seal

As you shop for the right vehicle, make sure you look for the oval-shaped Recreation Vehicle Industry Association (RVIA) seal. RVIA is a national association representing RV manufacturers and parts suppliers who together produce more than 95 percent of all RVs manufactured in the United States.
 
As members of RVIA, manufacturers who display the seal must self-certify compliance with more than 500 safety specifications for electrical, plumbing, heating and fire and life safety established under the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) A119.2 Standard for Recreational Vehicles. Manufacturers are subject to periodic, unannounced plant inspections by RVIA representatives to audit their compliance. Members who fail to maintain an acceptable level of compliance can be expelled from the association, which prohibits them from displaying the RVIA seal on their products.

RVIA members display gold and black seals on motorhomes; silver and black seals on fifth-wheel and other travel trailers; and white and black seals on truck campers and folding camping trailers.

As another condition of RVIA membership, motorhome and trailer manufacturers must post a weight label in a conspicuous location in the vehicle's interior. Shoppers should locate these labels for information vital to safe operation of the vehicle. The label lists weights and ratings, including the unit's gross and unloaded weight ratings, as well as carrying capacity. The label will enable you to determine how much weight it can safely transport, including dealer-installed accessories, fuel and other engine fluids, LP gas, fresh water, passengers (for motorized RVs) and personal belongings.

Consult the vehicle owner's manual for other valuable weight information as well as data on proper weight distribution, how to weigh the vehicle, and towing guidelines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As we continue this discussion, I thought it might be helpful to review exactly what the RVIA Seal does stand for as published by the Go RVing campaign for consumer eduction.  It says:</p>
<p>The RVIA Seal</p>
<p>As you shop for the right vehicle, make sure you look for the oval-shaped Recreation Vehicle Industry Association (RVIA) seal. RVIA is a national association representing RV manufacturers and parts suppliers who together produce more than 95 percent of all RVs manufactured in the United States.</p>
<p>As members of RVIA, manufacturers who display the seal must self-certify compliance with more than 500 safety specifications for electrical, plumbing, heating and fire and life safety established under the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) A119.2 Standard for Recreational Vehicles. Manufacturers are subject to periodic, unannounced plant inspections by RVIA representatives to audit their compliance. Members who fail to maintain an acceptable level of compliance can be expelled from the association, which prohibits them from displaying the RVIA seal on their products.</p>
<p>RVIA members display gold and black seals on motorhomes; silver and black seals on fifth-wheel and other travel trailers; and white and black seals on truck campers and folding camping trailers.</p>
<p>As another condition of RVIA membership, motorhome and trailer manufacturers must post a weight label in a conspicuous location in the vehicle&#8217;s interior. Shoppers should locate these labels for information vital to safe operation of the vehicle. The label lists weights and ratings, including the unit&#8217;s gross and unloaded weight ratings, as well as carrying capacity. The label will enable you to determine how much weight it can safely transport, including dealer-installed accessories, fuel and other engine fluids, LP gas, fresh water, passengers (for motorized RVs) and personal belongings.</p>
<p>Consult the vehicle owner&#8217;s manual for other valuable weight information as well as data on proper weight distribution, how to weigh the vehicle, and towing guidelines.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Zagami</title>
		<link>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1652</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Zagami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 02:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1652</guid>
		<description>I'm not sure RVIA is ready to transfer that responsibility to me just yet! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure RVIA is ready to transfer that responsibility to me just yet! <img src='http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Sean Woodruff</title>
		<link>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1651</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Woodruff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 20:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1651</guid>
		<description>Speaking of Go RVing, I wonder what the ROI on that $16+ million has been for the year. 

Oh, it can't be figured unless the campaign is actually held accountable for SALES of RVs and not just random awareness numbers published in a press release.

Pay me half of that budget and I'll GUARANTEE increased sales.  I'd manage one hard charging, WORKING office delivering qualified customers to dealerships across the nation! 

The other half of the budget could go to customer relations and service after the sale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of Go RVing, I wonder what the ROI on that $16+ million has been for the year. </p>
<p>Oh, it can&#8217;t be figured unless the campaign is actually held accountable for SALES of RVs and not just random awareness numbers published in a press release.</p>
<p>Pay me half of that budget and I&#8217;ll GUARANTEE increased sales.  I&#8217;d manage one hard charging, WORKING office delivering qualified customers to dealerships across the nation! </p>
<p>The other half of the budget could go to customer relations and service after the sale.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Zagami</title>
		<link>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1650</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Zagami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 19:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1650</guid>
		<description>Good questions Sean, but we may once again be overlooking the real underlying issue here.  The problem isn't the seals, which do serve a beneficial purpose by providing much of the funding for the Go RVing campaign.

You would like to think that quality could and should be controlled by each individual manufacturer, but that's just not the case.

Accepting that fact, you would like to think that if RVIA is going to have standards and seals, that the minimum thresholds be established at levels that guarantee a high level of customer satisfaction with our industry, and that is not the case right now.  That fact is well know and documented in many marketing and research studies that show some disturbing trends and customer attitudes about RV service and quality control.

Are we not once again back to an issue of product quality with some manufacturers that is allowed to exist and the consumer has not yet proven to be adept at figuring out which ones are on which side of the equation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good questions Sean, but we may once again be overlooking the real underlying issue here.  The problem isn&#8217;t the seals, which do serve a beneficial purpose by providing much of the funding for the Go RVing campaign.</p>
<p>You would like to think that quality could and should be controlled by each individual manufacturer, but that&#8217;s just not the case.</p>
<p>Accepting that fact, you would like to think that if RVIA is going to have standards and seals, that the minimum thresholds be established at levels that guarantee a high level of customer satisfaction with our industry, and that is not the case right now.  That fact is well know and documented in many marketing and research studies that show some disturbing trends and customer attitudes about RV service and quality control.</p>
<p>Are we not once again back to an issue of product quality with some manufacturers that is allowed to exist and the consumer has not yet proven to be adept at figuring out which ones are on which side of the equation.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Woodruff</title>
		<link>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1649</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Woodruff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 17:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1649</guid>
		<description>Here are a few questions I have...

What would happen if the sticker program went away?

Do manufacturers actually need someone to set their standards for them?

Will the market decide which manufacturers should survive and which standards matter?

Why 320SF? Why not 330?

Why do park models not need standards?

And on, and on, and on... 

Stickers are comical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here are a few questions I have&#8230;</p>
<p>What would happen if the sticker program went away?</p>
<p>Do manufacturers actually need someone to set their standards for them?</p>
<p>Will the market decide which manufacturers should survive and which standards matter?</p>
<p>Why 320SF? Why not 330?</p>
<p>Why do park models not need standards?</p>
<p>And on, and on, and on&#8230; </p>
<p>Stickers are comical.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Zagami</title>
		<link>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1645</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Zagami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 11:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1645</guid>
		<description>You can put whatever name you want on a trailer, and call it whatever you want, but there are units over 320 square feet that are being shipped without seals and they are being displayed on the floor at Louisville and they are not in the so-called park model area in Broadbend Arena.

I think the real issue is the integrity and confidence in a seal program that extracts a large amount of money each year from the consumers (through the dealer, from the manufacturer's invoice) and the value it is supposed to represent.  There are efforts underway to allow manufacturers to build even larger units and does this mean they should be allowed to build them without seals?  It does in some people's minds.

If the industry is going to have a seal of quality and construction program, and if this charge is ultimately being paid by our customers, then any manufacturer that is a member of RVIA should be putting a seal on every unit that leaves the manufacturing floor.  There should be no exceptions and there should not be loopholes that allow companies to bypass the association's own program.

If you build it, put the seal on it.  Don't hide behind the size of your unit or whether or not it is a "park" model.  RPTIA does have it's own program and is hurt by companies that are members of RVIA but ship models called park models but then won't join RPTIA becuase they actually make their members abide by their rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can put whatever name you want on a trailer, and call it whatever you want, but there are units over 320 square feet that are being shipped without seals and they are being displayed on the floor at Louisville and they are not in the so-called park model area in Broadbend Arena.</p>
<p>I think the real issue is the integrity and confidence in a seal program that extracts a large amount of money each year from the consumers (through the dealer, from the manufacturer&#8217;s invoice) and the value it is supposed to represent.  There are efforts underway to allow manufacturers to build even larger units and does this mean they should be allowed to build them without seals?  It does in some people&#8217;s minds.</p>
<p>If the industry is going to have a seal of quality and construction program, and if this charge is ultimately being paid by our customers, then any manufacturer that is a member of RVIA should be putting a seal on every unit that leaves the manufacturing floor.  There should be no exceptions and there should not be loopholes that allow companies to bypass the association&#8217;s own program.</p>
<p>If you build it, put the seal on it.  Don&#8217;t hide behind the size of your unit or whether or not it is a &#8220;park&#8221; model.  RPTIA does have it&#8217;s own program and is hurt by companies that are members of RVIA but ship models called park models but then won&#8217;t join RPTIA becuase they actually make their members abide by their rules.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Woodruff</title>
		<link>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1641</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Woodruff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 17:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1641</guid>
		<description>Based on conversations with thousands of RVers I can tell you they couldn't care less about the sticker.  I've never heard one of them reference the "standards" that the stickers represent.

Customers don't care about stickers.  They want REAL quality that can only be felt and realized.  That is really what sticks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Based on conversations with thousands of RVers I can tell you they couldn&#8217;t care less about the sticker.  I&#8217;ve never heard one of them reference the &#8220;standards&#8221; that the stickers represent.</p>
<p>Customers don&#8217;t care about stickers.  They want REAL quality that can only be felt and realized.  That is really what sticks.</p>
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		<title>By: Gene Seider</title>
		<link>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1639</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene Seider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 12:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1639</guid>
		<description>Hello Greg,

Re the lacking RVIA seals, I would have to agree with Saltzgiver and Martinkus that what appears to be "loopholes" are most likely "reality" than an attempt to circumvent the RVIA standards, etc.  My guess is that if a pole were taken of RV Manufacturers today, the vast majority have a reasonable Quality Control system in place and that it is enforced.

However, there will always be someone who will attempt to operate outside the Standard.  Shame on them...  

The vast majority of RVers are quite smart about Quality in their rigs.  In truth, they are not easily mislead and can spot shoddy workmanship a mile away.  

You might want to take a new aim regarding RV Standards and bring into focus the need for Standards Review Group that would be empowered to bring into conformance a set of Updated Standards (i.e - Mike Martinkus' comment).  Also, maybe it is time that the RV Manufacturers take a look at ISO Standards.  

Gene</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Greg,</p>
<p>Re the lacking RVIA seals, I would have to agree with Saltzgiver and Martinkus that what appears to be &#8220;loopholes&#8221; are most likely &#8220;reality&#8221; than an attempt to circumvent the RVIA standards, etc.  My guess is that if a pole were taken of RV Manufacturers today, the vast majority have a reasonable Quality Control system in place and that it is enforced.</p>
<p>However, there will always be someone who will attempt to operate outside the Standard.  Shame on them&#8230;  </p>
<p>The vast majority of RVers are quite smart about Quality in their rigs.  In truth, they are not easily mislead and can spot shoddy workmanship a mile away.  </p>
<p>You might want to take a new aim regarding RV Standards and bring into focus the need for Standards Review Group that would be empowered to bring into conformance a set of Updated Standards (i.e - Mike Martinkus&#8217; comment).  Also, maybe it is time that the RV Manufacturers take a look at ISO Standards.  </p>
<p>Gene</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Saltzgiver</title>
		<link>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1636</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Saltzgiver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 23:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1636</guid>
		<description>Hi Greg,
Your statement that there is a loop hole isn't valid since a unit that is over 320 square feet cannot bear the RVIA seal.  These units are not considered travel trailers but instead Park Trailers which is a different catagory and they do not come under the RVIA umberella.
The size limitations for seals is up to 320 square feet.  The federal interpretaion for an RV is a travel trailer with less than 320 square feet in its set up position.  Any travel trailer over 320 square feet but no more that 400 square feet in its set up position is a Park trailer.  The RPTIA (Recreational Park Trailer Industry Assoication) is the governing body for these type of units and they have standards for which these units are to built. They supply a seal that can be put on these units to allow the customers to know that they have been built to a certain standard of safety.  The RVIA seal and RPTIA seals simply gives the assurance that these units have been built to a certain standard.  The lack of the seal doesn't mean that a unit wasn't built to those standards it just means that there is not way to tell what safety standards if any, were used in the quality control of the building of those units.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Greg,<br />
Your statement that there is a loop hole isn&#8217;t valid since a unit that is over 320 square feet cannot bear the RVIA seal.  These units are not considered travel trailers but instead Park Trailers which is a different catagory and they do not come under the RVIA umberella.<br />
The size limitations for seals is up to 320 square feet.  The federal interpretaion for an RV is a travel trailer with less than 320 square feet in its set up position.  Any travel trailer over 320 square feet but no more that 400 square feet in its set up position is a Park trailer.  The RPTIA (Recreational Park Trailer Industry Assoication) is the governing body for these type of units and they have standards for which these units are to built. They supply a seal that can be put on these units to allow the customers to know that they have been built to a certain standard of safety.  The RVIA seal and RPTIA seals simply gives the assurance that these units have been built to a certain standard.  The lack of the seal doesn&#8217;t mean that a unit wasn&#8217;t built to those standards it just means that there is not way to tell what safety standards if any, were used in the quality control of the building of those units.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Martinkus</title>
		<link>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1635</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Martinkus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 22:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.rvtradedigest.com/interactive/2007/05/29/help-wanted-seal-sleuth/#comment-1635</guid>
		<description>Greg
While I personally am a proponent of RVIA and it's certification process, I certainly don't agree that lack of it's seal constitutes a "substandard" product.
Most major Bus converters do not carry the seal and never have but I doubt that anyone could mount much of an argument against that nich of the market by using your logic.
If my information is correct, the 1970's requirement by RVIA that all complying RV's have dual holding tanks is a seal killer all by it's self. Most converters provide one tank and I don't consider that practice to be inferior.I'm guessing that there are more requirements that do not fit todays product but not having all the requirements at hand it is just a guess.
You did cause me to walk the lot and look though !</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg<br />
While I personally am a proponent of RVIA and it&#8217;s certification process, I certainly don&#8217;t agree that lack of it&#8217;s seal constitutes a &#8220;substandard&#8221; product.<br />
Most major Bus converters do not carry the seal and never have but I doubt that anyone could mount much of an argument against that nich of the market by using your logic.<br />
If my information is correct, the 1970&#8217;s requirement by RVIA that all complying RV&#8217;s have dual holding tanks is a seal killer all by it&#8217;s self. Most converters provide one tank and I don&#8217;t consider that practice to be inferior.I&#8217;m guessing that there are more requirements that do not fit todays product but not having all the requirements at hand it is just a guess.<br />
You did cause me to walk the lot and look though !</p>
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