Maybe dealers don’t want or can’t sell quality products
A sales manager for an RV manufacturer called me recently to express his frustration over another blog I had written that questioned why only four manufacturers qualified for the RVDA’s Quality Circle Award this year. To get the award, a manufacturer needs 15 responses with an overall rating of 80 percent. Although I expressed concern that only 577 of the industry’s approximately 3,500 full-time dealers took time to rate their business partners, I surmised the problem rested in achieving an 80 percent score. I dug deep into last year’s results and determined the average score for the industry’s manufacturers was 68.1 — a D in even the most liberal of public schools. The manufacturer said his company received the Quality Circle Award in the past, but not this year. He said the market is changing in that few companies are willing to build quality products, few dealers can sell quality products and fewer consumers know how to buy quality products. He said it’s a frustrating problem and, based on his explanation, I tend to agree. He said recreation vehicles are among the most price competitive products on the market and that quality is the most difficult component to sell because many times it’s built into the interior or underneath the RV. In other words, customers can’t see it. By the time they walk through 17 RVs at a consumer show or on a dealer’s lot, all the RVs look the same. And if they all look the same, then price becomes the only factor. Until dealers learn to sell the quality built into the RVs as the key differentiation in justifying a higher price, the manufacturers who invest into building higher quality products continue to be punished.
The sales manager said that he hears dealers say all the time that quality sells. But, he cautioned that quality can’t EVER sell at the lowest price. He understands why dealers want manufacturers to build quality products because it’s the dealers who stand in front of customers when something goes wrong. But, the same dealers also insist that manufacturers meet specific price points. In order to reach those price points, manufacturers have to either absorb the additional costs themselves to create quality, or take the quality out of the product. For example, to meet a particular price point the manufacturer may have to take out an extra stud in the wall or use cheaper base flooring. Perhaps the five-year structural warranty could be reduced to three years. The bottom line, from the manufacturer’s perspective, is that something must give. His company needs to make a profit to be able to invest in retooling costs, market development, dealer support and product innovation. The company must also be able to sell the RVs they build in order to care for and pay the hundreds of families working at the plant. The final frustration for this manufacturer — the issue that really baffles him on one hand and hurts on the other — is that dealers punish quality manufacturers. Dealers continue to do business with companies that knowingly build bad products, fail to stand behind them and deliver horrendous service to their dealer partners. Why do dealers do that? Because they can still make money selling the products. So manufacturers who seal test every RV, who ensure label weights are accurate, who engage in durability testing on all units, who invest in complex equipment to ensure tighter fit and finish, who provide overnight parts to dealers at retail markup — those manufacturers are punished for their effort.
So what kind of message does that send to quality manufacturers and those that could care less about quality or service?
It appears the only time quality will truly become important is when warranty costs get into the back pockets of dealers and manufacturers. Until then, maybe a D is all the RV industry can ever expect for selling and servicing a limited use product. As long as manufacturers and dealers continue to make money with lower quality products and less service, does it really matter?
January 10th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Excellent comments Gene, but you might be surprised to find out that many RV manufacturers do not pratice lean manufacturing and have no clue what the ISO certification process could do for their business. That is not to condemn everyone because there are manufacturers that are making great strides in this area and are truly addressing the quality issues that can drive people out of this industry as fast as they drove in. We all know that consumers won’t stand for poor quality, lousy service, extended delays in getting the right parts and arguments over what is and what is not covered by the so-called warranty they thought they had on the unit. This gets extended down to the dealer level with inadequate compensation and credit for issues that were clearly the result of poor manufacturing, shoddy QC - if any, and the manufacturer’s concern for the investment dealers are asked to make in correcting somebody else’s problem.
I posted the following not over on the forum pages this week but I think it speak to exactly the points that you bring up. It sounds like you may be from outside the RV industry, which is fine, because you can look at it from a different perspective. I’m not sure why you didn’t like the references to the auto industry, but you will certainly appreciate some of the comments below.
In order to really get improvement in this area the manufacturers themselves must first, build a better product and provide accurate documentation on every aspect of the RV.
A few years ago I visited several manufacturers in the Elkhart/Goshen area to speak to them about document management systems and how they can improve quality control (that’s my real world job). After visiting over ten companies in two days with my local sales rep, he turned to me and said; “unless you tell me that I really have to call on RV companies, I’m never coming back here.”
The reason for his displeasure was our shock at seeing poor the documentation is for engineering drawings and related support information in the RV industry today. We all know the RV industry is quite far behind the automobile manufacturers when it comes to documenting the manufacturing process and having the correct design specifications, bills of materials, purchase specifications and final assembly and QC systems and procedures.
However, this is the source of all the other problems you talk about in this thread. Manufacturers can’t find the right documentation when dealers call, dealers don’t have the right documentation to accurately troubleshoot the problem, and the schematics and parts information is woefully inadequate.
By the way, my sales rep never went back to Elkhart/Goshen and it sounds like there hasn’t been much improvement with several of the culprits that are causing such aggravation to every one who touches the product once it is towed or driven off the manufacturing line.
Until this industry learns how to build them right, document their process, and have an adequate supply of parts to support what the sell, things are never going to improve. And that’s a sad commentary that hurts the companies that do it right, but suffer from a poor image when RVers run into these types of problems.
January 9th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Hello fellow bloggers,
I just spent a good half hour reading over all of the responses to this most vibrant question. I was impressed by the level of thought expressed (but maybe not the inference to the “auto” industry). Yet, I feel that the word “Quality Conscious” most expresses my feelings about the concern expressed in this question.
I am sure that other readers/writers may share my experience, I, for one, have performed numerous quality surveys, written and instituted several ISO 9000/9001/9002 documents and plans, and generally assisted in tightening up Quality organizations over my many years in the technical community.
Instituting a really “Quality Conscious” organization begins with a committment by the CEO of the Organization. There has to be a hard and fast place where the “Buck” stops dead in its tracks. From that lofty perch of the CEO, the “Quality Conscious” philosophy must flow down to every organizational level. It must be enforced to the enth degree.
That, my friends, is the beauty of the ISO process. Once in place, there is no turning back.
I fully agree with one commentator. Maybe it is time for the RVIA to come to some corporate agreement that it is time to tighten up the image of a $16 Billion industry and institute a 5 year plan to require all members of RVIA to have an ISO approved Quality plan.
What do others think?
December 28th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
Sean;
I can’t say I agree with you about the auto industry…
I’ve been driving for about 35 years now. From what I’ve observed during that time it appears to me that “the big 3″, as it were, can’t go more then about 12-15 years before there ill-conceived, poorly designed/engineered products run counter to either what the rest of the industry is doing, or to what the consumer desires. When that occurs they go through some very painful times. It’s almost as though they keep making the same mistakes over and over again, and there ever-dwindling market share seems to validate that.
If that’s the same mistake prone pattern the RV industry falls into I really feel sorry for them.
December 28th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
Bob;
I wasn’t actually comparing anyone in the auto industry to anyone in the RV business. My comments were merely intended to rebuke your assertion that companies don’t get large while not delivering on there promises. The example using Ford and GM was to prove that you can indeed get quiet large in your respective industry, even if you aren’t conducting yourself in the manner your supposed to.
December 28th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
Jim,
I believe the auto industry grew quite nicely by delivering on their promises. Sure, they had “learning experiences” along the way that knocked them back a step but they came back and grew some more. I think they are in the midst of one of those “learning experinces” now. I have no doubt that they will evolve into what they need to be to grow into the future.
The question here is, “Will the RV industry evolve?”
December 28th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
Jim,
Just a few days ago your wrote, “I don’t believe you can directly translate the success of one business model to an entirely different industry; what works when selling pickup trucks isn’t necessarily what works for peddling insurance.”
Now you want to tie the big three automakers (manufacturers) that do $200 billion a year (that’s just GM) to a dealer (not a manufacturer) that does less than $1 billion a year. Where’s the logic here?
The RV industry is ten to twenty years behind the automotive industry when it comes to manufacturing techniques and processes, bloated payrolls, unfunded pension plans, and paying an unrealistic percentage of their employees medical benefits.
A completely different animal, but nice try anyway!
December 28th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
“You don’t grow a company that large by failing to deliver on your promises”. Really? Do the names Ford and GM mean anything to you?
You can get big, real big, and still have crappy products and service. But that seems to have caught up to both of them (again) because they’re suffering mightily.
And about that beer… I don’t get up your way much but if I was in the position I’d love to. It would be great to chat with a man that has your experience in the industry.
December 27th, 2006 at 7:22 pm
Touche’ Mr. Wilson. I site Lazydays because they are at the other end of the spectrum from most dealers running a single site operation. An organization of that size will certainly have their fair share of disgruntled customers, but as a percentage of all customers I think you would find them performing at impressive levels given their size. You don’t grow a company that large by failing to deliver on your promises and they have created what is perhaps the ultimate customer experience in the RV industry today. We are now seeing some of the other successful larger dealers building facilities that will replicate what Lazydays has established in Florida.
I don’t allow my sales people to offer excuses when they lose a sale, no matter who they lose it to. The sales rep that gets the order did something different to win that customer’s business. I’m not saying that what he or she did was ethical, moral, or illegal … but they did something different, said something different, or (hopefully) presented a more professional presentation of the product and the dealership and gained the customer’s confidence.
I think all of us contributing to this post will agree that there are three critical issues facing the RV industry today and they run rampant through these messages … poor product quality, sales people that don’t know how to sell value and dealers that don’t have the guts to stop selling products that embarrass the entire industry and drive people away from the RV lifestyle.
If you are in New England let me know, I’d love to buy you a beer or a cup of coffee and expand on these ideas and discussions.
December 27th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
I don’t believe you can directly translate the success of one business model to an entirely different industry; what works when selling pickup trucks isn’t necessarily what works for peddling insurance. I’m sure your wife does a fantastic job, but what works for her certainly wouldn’t translate into every other industry (and saying her business model is customer service and quality products is too generic an answer — everyone seemingly strives for that).
But I guess the definition of “successful” is in the semantics; if you mean dollars per unit then you’re probably right, the little guy more then likely would show a better individual gross. But did they improve there year-over profitability too? What about the turn rates? And did there volume go up as well? Given the current state of the industry I can’t fathom how the smaller dealer will be able to compete as effectively as they had in years past.
Unless I misstated something I never meant to imply small dealers can’t compete, only that it’s becoming increasingly difficult for them to do so effectively. Belief in your product is definitely not enough. Neither is touting your excellent customer service. Let’s face it, that mantra is sighted by virtually everyone for everything, but as I’m certain you can attest to it’s not delivered at anywhere near the level it should be. Most consumers, myself included, have become jaded to the idea of *good* service because we so infrequently receive it.
Sighting Lazydays makes my argument for me; high volume, low margin organization willing to make a deal at virtually any amount of gross. I know, I’ve run up against them personally in my salesmen days when I was trying to sell a $250,000 diesel pusher. There gross numbers look good on paper, and they absolutely move a ton of product, but at what cost? What is there margin average per unit? I’ll be willing to bet that it’s a fraction of what the majority sell for. That’s there business model, and they appear quiet successful doing it. But I’m certain they have an achilles heel, and from what I’ve been able to ascertain it might just be there customer service that suffers because of it.
I, like yourself, would applaud some type of industry shift. It’s certainly about time, but what it should be I’m not qualified to even tender a guess. Hopefully it comes with the least amount of pain and the most amount of gain. I don’t know if that’s possible, but it’s certainly my desire.
December 27th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
All of this is great reading and there are many valid opinions. But, unfortunately, the people who are the problem are probably not reading this article. They don’t care. “Give me the cheapest thing I can get so I can complete or beat the price of my completion” This phrase is echoed throughout our industry, from the purchasing agents at the manufacturing point, all the way down to the sales people at the dealerships.
I was at a State RVDA meeting a few months ago, and I had to listen to several dealers complain about, poor quality, not getting paid warranty, not getting parts on time, and over-all terrible support from their RV manufacturers. I stood up in the meeting and said “then why do you continue to sell those products, all of my companies pay claims well and have great support”. I had too speak my mind. I know what lines these dealers are selling, and those manufacturers have some of the worst reputations in the industry, but they are some of the lowest priced. “You get what you pay for” and “if it’s cheaper, it’s cheaper for a reason”, are the sayings we hear from the media and consumer reports. But, our customers don’t realize that. In most case they are buying what the dealer has to offer. They believe that you, as a dealer, would not sell them a piece of junk. I am very lucky that I am a 30 year old dealer who has picked the best lines to sell based on quality and support. I truly have the pick of the litter, 3 out of 4 of my brands are continually part of the RVDA Quality Circle Award winners. But not all dealers are able to do that. They have to take what is left. And that is usually the B and C rated manufactures. It will take a group effort and a lot of time to get this changed around, but It will need to start with the dealer say “NO, I WONT STAND FOR THAT”
December 27th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Jim, I agree quality is NOT an easy sell. I don’t think profitable and easy are every in partnership.
“How much is it going to cost me” is a marketing and sales problem.
We sell hitches, every single day, that are 5 to 6 times higher in price than Cequent sells and have more money (i.e.-profit) at the end of the year than they do. If bigger and cheaper were better we wouldn’t be in business.
The dealership model of marketing and selling RVs is broken and needs to be fixed if RV manufacturers want to grow.
I agree with needing a major event. Maybe a manufacturer needs to step up and take on some of the marketing and selling responsibility. If anyone needs to know how to do that, they can contact me. I open for negotiation.
December 27th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Great comments Jim, but I don’t buy your logic on this small dealer issue. A professional “small” dealer (in any type of business) will be more successful (% of profit at the end of the year) than any large big box dealer or national conglomerate. I’ve observed it in my own household. My wife opened a kitchen and bath design service and showroom fifteen years ago .. truly a “small” business. People said she would never last because she wouldn’t be able to compete with Home Depot and Lowe’s and other big box stores that sell cabinetry. Well guess what, she never intended on being down at their level. There is no way on earth that these lareg superstores can provide the level of service and expertise that a “good” small dealer can provide. Her business has grown every year but it’s a controlled growth based on how big she wants her company to be and she provides an incredible level of service and support to her customers. She does no advertising and today 83% of her business comes from referrals and people will wait three months to get an appointment with her.
I do not understand why everyone is so cavalier about this issue and coming up with a million excuses as to why small dealers can’t compete and RV’ers only want to buy on price .. that is simply unacceptable if you really believe in your products and services and intend to provide outstanding customer service.
I also won’t buy the argument that RV salespeople can not sell value and service. Why is it that the average RV dealer does about $5-10 million dollars a year and then you have a Lazydays that will do over $800 million a year from a single location … that’s approximately ten times what the average dealer will do this year. And yet when I mention this to smaller dealers all they can do is complain about Lazydays but admit they have never studied their business model nor have they been there in person to observe the facility, the people, and the level of service they provide to prospects and customers.
I’ll tell you this, if I was in a business where one of my competitors was doing eight to ten times what the average dealer was doing, I would certainly want to know as much about them as possible and learn something from the experience. Yet I’ve spoken to many an RV dealer that will complain about them and knows nothing about them. Now that’s just dumb.
You are right on about the industry needing a major event that will change the way things are going. I would suggest that a good place to start is by bringing in sales reps from other industries who have already learned how to sell value and you will see an immediate difference between them and what many dealers are sending forth to greet visitors to their lots.
December 27th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Sean;
I don’t believe Sunlines ultimate demise was as simple as building high quality/high priced products. It almost goes without saying that something else was involved as well, but I don’t concur with you that the issues were as strongly related to there marketing efforts.
In my opinion there’s no such thing as a “pre-sold” consumer. You have some with a strong predilections, but that can usually be altered by the correct set of circumstances or, as you put it, a well trained staff. But that last condition, from my experience, is not nearly as common as it should be.
I did RV sales for a while myself, and I can attest to the fact that quality is NOT an easy sell. You can quote chapter and verse on all the construction and engineering enhancements your product has that the one costing less doesn’t, but far too often the bottom line is just that, the bottom line; “how much is this going to cost me” is a very common refrain.
Bob;
I realize that you’re voice is far more prominent in the RV industry then mine will ever be, but I’m afraid I’ll have to disagree with your assessment about the smaller dealers going out of business deserving it. While perhaps that’s true for a percentage of them I don’t feel it’s warranted for the amount you seem to imply (what’s that about painting things with the same brush?).
It’s exceedingly difficult to maintain a small family-style business with the onslaught of the “warehouse” style of dealership, or the on-line ones. The former really only cares about sales volume not customer satisfaction, while the later doesn’t worry about supporting the number of units they sell because they won’t see the vast majority of those people again (most come from far enough away to make it impractical for those people to obtain service from the on-line “dealership”). Both business models can sustain low margin sales due to sheer volume, while the mom-and-pop type of dealership simply can’t. And since the consumer appears to view RV’s as commodity items — seemingly interchangeable — the smaller dealer is at a distinct disadvantage, great customer service/product or not.
To me it seems as though the industry is overdue for a shake out, some catalyst that will initiate a change in the way things are done. I can’t imagine a scenario that would force the necessary changes to occur in a gradual manner, it almost seems as though it would have to be a significant shift in order to alter the present course.
December 22nd, 2006 at 9:53 am
I have to agree with Bob. A big dealership doesn’t get that way by “pushing” low quality units on its customers. It got that way by providing excellent service. This is not just an RV industry issue, the auto companies struggle with it as well. How do you justify adding $500 to the cost of your product to make a quality improvement when it doesn’t result in a single new sale? Then, when you pass that cost onto the customer, the media blasts you for it. A manufacturer will do what brings them the biggest profit. It’s only when the customer places quality over cost that the manufacturer will make the change. Yes, the dealer can push back and demand higher standards, but what makes the dealership is the level of service. Take control over what you can. Changing the mindset of an OEM is not something that happens overnight. We still have to get through today.
December 22nd, 2006 at 8:48 am
Brian’s a little off base with his comments here. While there are significant issues that the RV industry must address, you can not paint all dealers and all manufacturers with the same paint brush. I would say that a dealer who has provided fifty years of outstanding sales and service is not going to go out of business in today’s market. This is such a competitive advantage that their concern for customer satisfaction will be rewarded for anothe fifty years. The smaller dealers who are going out of business - should be, for those are the ones that did not earn a customer’s loyalty and did not know how to sell the value of their employees, their experience, and the products they choose to carry.
I would also disagree with his assessment of large dealers changing inventory “every other year.” Inventory costs money, and every time you change it is a significant investment because you must retrain sales people, retrain service people, change the parts and accessories you stock, and on top of that you alienate your customer base. You do not see the real professional dealers changing inventory. In fact it is quite the opposite, they are pruning poor quality products so that they can concentrate on the manufacturers that support them and their customers.
Finally, the consumer that wants to purchase an RV over the Internet and have some stranger deliver it, is not the consumer any professional would want to do business with anyway. Buying and selling is a time to develop a relationship of trust and responsibility by both parties. This goes back to the argument of selling value. If you can not show the value of your employees, your experience, and the products that you carry then you don’t deserve the sale to begin with. You “earn” business, you don’t “buy” business.
Remember, the person that closes the deal is the one that did the best job of meeting the customer expectations and requirements. If that winds up being the worst dealer in town, with the worst repuation, and selling the worst products the industry has to offer, then shame on the RV industry. Where were the good dealers if this is what the consumer winds up with.
Think about it.
December 22nd, 2006 at 8:33 am
The only way this issue will be resolved is if Dealers stand firm and demand quality. If a manufacturer is producing an inferior product and the Dealers are buying it, the manufacturer will continue to make it. If the Dealers do not buy these inferior products they will disappear from the marketplace. Unfortunately, it only takes a few Dealers who choose to sell these products to ruin the market for everyone. If you are competing with a Dealer who sell shoddy product you will probably lose deals based solely on price. It is very difficult to prove to the consumer that one product is better than another based on quality. Many times the “quality” difference can not be seen by the customer-it is built in at the factory. It is up to the Dealers to stress these quality standards when we are presenting the “features and benefits” to the RV customer.
December 21st, 2006 at 8:26 pm
I must laugh at all this The real issue is greed. As a shop formen I seen it all. I was told by a dealer who I used to work for that no one has a job unless we see the taillights of our units go over the curb no matter if everthing works or not. Big dealers and bulk sales have destroyed the market on both sides of the fence I now see the ma and pap stores going under after 50 years of great sevice and sales. Big dealers change manufacurers every other year to bypass promblems most big dealers care aboutis bulk sales service takes a back seat Now manufacurers all are the same bulk sales and quality takes a back seat I now run a mobile service were I can help the consumer who is on a perment site or many miles away from a dealer.90 percent of my customers all complian about poor service from there dealer and how they got suckered into a poor quality unit.Now you can buy your unit on line and have it delivered any were droped off with no propane no walkthru and noPDI this type of greed will kill the rv market.
December 20th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
My father, Julien Stevens started our business 50 years ago. He never made a lot of money because he spent his own money taking care of the customer. He took care of the customers even when the manufacturer would not pay him. Sounds foolish, but during those years he developed the reputation of taking care of his customer. Today, our referral business is the driving force in our business.
Today, our systems and processes still ensure customer service will be performed at the highest level.
We have to mention 2 manufacturers, Jayco and Winnebago, that give us the most efficient parts and service response time.
We have other manufacturers that fall into the other categories you mentioned.
Unfortunatly, most often in the RV business, customer satisfaction comes as a result of the dealers effort to get the manufacturer to perform parts and service in a timely manner.
Our dealership has adjusted to the fact that some manufacturers will not perform at the level needed for ultimate customer satisfaction. We make every effort to parallel customer satisfaction with selling appeal. The old saying, “Nothing happens ’til somebody sells something” applys. Often this means our support team has to step up our effort to get the manufacturers with selling appeal but with poor parts and service support, to perform.
As I see it, the RV retailer has to make a decision. Does he want to sell for a manufacturer who has a hot product, but does not have the support on the parts and service end of the business. It will never all be right.
December 20th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
The issues start with product announcements…
Read the latest press release issued by Keystone and posted on the home page here.
I can find at least 5 issues in the one small announcement.
From there, it is all down hill to the customer.
December 20th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
Let me begin by asking a question,what are “we” the rv industry defining as “quality” ??, I dont think a standard has been set and if there is measure of quality I have not seen one in the eight years I have been involved in the rv dealership experience.
I’ve seen several manufacturers come and go in the short time I’v been involved,one that I know of started up last summer with nothing more than a large pole barn and a small admin office to administer the operation. The first unit delivered to this dealership was sent back due to a reckless assembly process resulting in a product that would have been embarassing to allow a customer to view. How can this manufacturer even allow a unit out of the plant in such poor condition and expect it to be sold?. The point of all this is, is that if there is no quality control at the manufacturing level and dealers are willing to sell low quality units and the unknowing consumer puchases them and then exspects a quality camping experience, who is the responsible one??
We all live by our own standards, so who is going to set the standard as to what “quality” really is in the Rv world??
December 20th, 2006 at 9:55 am
Bob Zagami has summed it up eloquently. What a sad commentary on our wonderful industry! I work for a manufacturer that markets components to OEMs. Our products, manufactured here in the U.S., are known to be the most reliable in the industry with a failure rate that consistently runs less than one percent. That reliability (quality), unfortunately, costs more than our foreign competition. When our OEM sales people point out to prospective customers that the failure rate percentage of our foriegn competitor’s product is in the double digits, the response is ” they replace all the failures so it really isn’t a problem”. When we ask about the concerns of warranty costs, the response is “thats not my concern, I have a price point I need to meet”. It boggles my mind that many or our industry’s manufacturers have virtually no communication between purchasing and warranty and many purchasing departments have no concept of what their warranty costs actually are. You would be amazed at how many dealers and, frequently, retail customers, call our company to inquire about purchasing our product because they have already had from two to five of the foriegn competition’s product fail in the same vehicle and refuse to put another one in the vehicle. I have been in the RV industry for forty years and I have expressed this opinion many times, until our industry learns how to “sell” quality, starting with the OEM and continuing with the dealer, the industry’s dismal customer satisfaction index will never improve!
December 20th, 2006 at 9:54 am
Lots of manufacturers think the last 25′ of the assembly line is the dealers “GET READY” DEPARTMENT. Dealers are the ones that have to face the ultimate user, and hear the gripes. In addition to that, manufacturers want their money up front or 10th of month for parts–the dealer sends their warranty claims in, and we are lucky to see it in 60 days “if at all”.
Perhaps dealers should go on “strike”, and if the units are not right when recieved–SEND THEM BACK. A few dozen returns, and they will take another outlook on what leaves the factory. On the other hand, we do get a lot of nice units–not all are bad.
And may I take this opportunity to wish everyone, a very MERRY CHRISTMAS AND ABOVE ALL A HAPPY HEALTHY NEW YEAR.
December 19th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
What a sad commentary on the RV industry. If I had a sales manager that said, “….. the market is changing in that few companies are willing to build quality products, few dealers can sell quality products and fewer consumers know how to buy quality products.” he wouldn’t be working for me in the morning.
If every industry thought like the RV industry, as portrayed in these comments and proven by their actions, then it would be a sad state of affairs for America.
Since when could sales managers not teach their sales reps to sell value? Every other industry can do it.
When dealers stop selling and supporting the very companies they are talking about here, then maybe the situation will start to improve. It never will if the prevailing comments here are indicative of the entire industry.
The industry should be thankful for the Go RVing campaign because all it’s doing is providing new customers that will replace the disgruntled ones that are abandoning the lifestyle. People are not stupid and if RVIA and RVDA were honest about these issues, they would start to force changes that would eliminate this kind of commentary from all sides of the aisle.
I wrote about this issue quite a few times, including some stinging editorials, and it seems to fall on deaf ears.
Doug’s comments highlight the most serious problem in the RV industry today. If a supplier tries to sell a quality product that adds true value to the customer experience, the only thing most OEM’s want to hear is “how much does it cost?” Most never ask what value this will provide to our customers? Most never ask what impact the product may have on their warranty claims reimbursement. And most never ask how this will help sell the real value of their manufactured product.
When people in the RV industry start using their own products, maybe they’ll finally figure it out. When I was editor of RV News I was always amazed by the number of owners, senior executives, sales managers and sales people that I spoke with who had never been out in their own product.
I recall Joe Girard’s Rule of 250 when it comes to selling. Joe, the author of “How to Sell Anything to Anybody”, claimed everyone knows about 250 people. They show up at your wedding and they show up at your funeral.
Unfortunately, when you tell 250 people that you got a lemon RV, they tell 250 more, and they all tell 250 more, and then of them tell another 250 more.
Get the picture? The problems in the RV industry are not the economy, it’s the very reputation shown in these responses that are being talked about at work, in the bowling alley, and probably in church!
Greg has done the industry a favor with this one. When you smash into a wall; perhaps you should stop long enough to read the writing on the wall.
December 19th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
I’m a “retired’ RV dealer. My fantasy always was to have no warranty whatsoever sold with a product to the extent that any work and parts required would be paid for by the customer on the spot to the fixing dealer. The customer then would submit the work order to the manufacturer for reimbursement. Sound crazy? Not so I say…manufacturers turn out crap and we dealers have to fight to save the customer relationship; sometimes with the very manufacturer of the “bummer”. With the customer warranty pay and factory reimbursement system the quality would come in or the people would kill sales referrals quickly with bad press…about the product and NOT the dealer. I think the manufacturers would wake up pretty quickly when customers stop buying and dealers stop stocking and selling their product. The dealer is stuck in the middle right now trying to make a customer with a zero quality control product happy. I say…”you built it, you stand behind it”…not hiding behind me the dealer.
December 19th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
As a small dealer, I do not feel much like a “customer” when it comes to manufacturers. If I am the “customer”, then why do I get products delivered that have not been inspected before shipment? If I am the “customer”, then why am I not reimbursed for adjustments to slides, doors, cabinets and so forth. If I am the “customer” then why do I have to wait 2 weeks for parts and then 3 months for payment for warranty work? If I am the “customer” then why do I have no recourse if a manufacturer decides not to pay for warranty work at all? If I am the “customer”, then why am I receiving a mid-twentieth century product to sell in the twenty-first? Come to think of it, maybe we do not have a “quality” problem, just an “ethics” problem. Of course, we all know us dealers are “saints”…..
December 19th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
Greg,
I have been in retail for 42 and own a dealership.
This quality issue from the manufacturer aside from warranty has to be a commitment. A commitment to the dealer, a commitment to the customer, a commitment to the industry. You can not mass produce and clone and hope to accomplish quality. The manufacturer needs to choose a price point and stick with it. They need to find a quality dealer in a market, give him the territory he needs and allow the dealer to make a good margin. Most manufacturers add items to a common product and refer to it as quality. It has been my experience that when a dealer makes a commitment to a manufacturer and is doing a good job, the manufacturer decides to add more dealers in the market place. Margins go down dealer cancels manfc. You can not be all things to all people. The manufacturer and dealer need to become more aware of this. Re: the auto dealer.
You will not see a BMW on the same floor as a MBnz. The dealership may have multiple lines, however he will also have more than one outlet for his various products. Now the professional and knowledgeable sales person comes into play. He will know his product and the competitor to his product. Everyone wins. I could go on and on and on. There isn’t quite enough space to cover this subject. It is all about commitment and dealership agreements. I do not throw all the blame on the manufacturer. Not all dealers have the trust, belief, or willingness to be product specific. As I said not an easy subject to cover. Time will eventually solve this problem. Thanks for the opportunity
December 19th, 2006 at 5:54 pm
Consumers want to believe in magic. Cheaper AND better.
Buyers are more than willing to “take the risk” in favor of a lower price by rationalizing “how bad can it be”. They tend to assume RVs are all good and that all support and warranty coverage is the same. They expect RVs to be great and only care when they find out the real facts. Unfortuantely this puts the incentive on everyone in the industry to go the wrong way when it comes to quality and support and focus on price.
We are selling 25′ travel trailers today loaded with features for what we sold bare units for in 1986! WOW! What other products have done that aside from the tech sector. Certainly not the auto industry.
Until the INDUSTRY makes quality a priority and a competitive feature instead focusing on price, it will not change! Manufacturers continue to ship bad product and expect the dealer to sell it with little care about the consumer’s satisfaction.
Buyers EXPECT quality and assume it is there. We all disappoint them when it isn’t! I believe lack of quality is costing us far more than we know or can calcualte.
Quality only costs more IF a manufacturer NEVER plans to support the customer by fixing his problems. If a manufacturer truly cares and supports owners, it is far less expensive to build it right as part of the assembly process. Trouble is the wrong manufacturers are driving the industry.
December 19th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Sean’s last paragraph is really on point. As a supplier to the OEMs it becomes all too clear that the mfgs. consider the dealers their customers and not the person actually purchasing and using the product they built. Case in point, ask 100 RVers what the least desirable task associated with RVing is, then ask 100 dealers! The end user says “Dumping the holding tanks”. The Dealer says, “I do not know”,probably parking the rig”. Our products are most sucessful when the OEM person at the top actually uses their product and practices the RV lifestyle. They are truly connected to the real customer. At the very least any engineer hired in Product Development should have to spend the first 30 days in the company’s product with his family travelling. Only then will he really understand what is important to the end user–HIS real customer.
December 19th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
I believe that the solution to the missing/low quality problem lies in the lap of us dealers. We are the ones that can insist that we will only offer for sale, RV’s that meet standards that we expect. We must dictate unmistakable terms to our manufacturers. They build quality and they explain to us what they have done and how to present it in the “feature / benefit” form. The most sucessful Prevost converters are the higher priced outfits. The low price [ read: lower quality ] guys keep biting the dust. Monaco, to name one ,is making inroads in this endeavor [training ]as an element of their Franchise for the Future also but all the training in the world is not worth a plug nickel if its not used. Dealer managment must insist that the trained salespeople actually USE the information in their presentation. Stop them from attempting to “fender trade” If we hire car salespeople, pizza delivery drivers and locksmiths, hand them some master keys and a brochure and tell them - “Go sell em ” we will continue to run the quality builders like Chinook , GMC, FMC, Cortez and Revcon out of business. If we ease up a little on our insistance of making our factories meet arbitrary price points it will go a long way in upping the ante for quality. Lets concentrate on selling quality the same way we sell a used units condition over its miles.
December 19th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
From an OEM supplier perspective the manufacturer is responsible for the quality of the product that they choose to build. Quality will not improve unless they are willing to pay for quality components and remain committed to quality. This is why a large percent of your R.V. are comprised of import product, many of poor quality and performance.
Suppliers are forced to source cheaper product to maintain the RV manufacturers business. This is based on the saying that “You get what you pay for”. Unfortunately the looser is the American worker and consumer. Quality is what I look for. Is it too late to bring it back home?
December 19th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Quality costs less in the long run. Less warranty costs, Higher percentage of repeat customers,( its cost less to keep a customer than to get a new one)Fewer replacments parts to stock, the list goes on and on. The problem is that most RV manufactures do not look at the long run. Most of them do not look past the next day. As a supplier to manufactures I constanly get orders for 5 of item XX today, 2 for tues and so on and so forth. The RV manufactures do not take advantage of the economy of scale to purchase higher quality products at affordable prices. If they did they could provide both Quality products and affordable price points to the customer.
On a side note Mr Barry Blakely has a very good point about brand advertising. The general Go RVing type of advertising is great for generating awareness of the life style but to generate actual sales RV manufactures need to develop the brand itself otherwise all RV’s do look the same.
December 19th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
I doubt it is that simple, Jim.
Quality products do not market themselves. Customers DO NOT beat a path to a better mouse trap.
Sunline did not market their products. They followed the old RV company line and ignored their responsibility of customer creation. If they had accepted the responsibility of marketing their products to the consumer there would have been thousands of educated, pre-sold prospects knocking on dealership doors. From that point on it would be the dealer responsibility to close the deal. A well trained dealer group would have no problem closing this type of deal because the informed consumer would not be comparing apples to oranges through the lens of a price quote.
December 19th, 2006 at 5:03 pm
I think that a lot of dealers are so large - that they just do not realize how much they are losing to warranty issues on these inferior rigs after the sale. Sure they may make it in the beginning, but they lose it in the end. I would say at least 40% of my trades this year have been 2005 or newer products (mostly from Keystone) that customers have realized what they purchased was a mistake. (Thankfully not with the products that I sell.) Some of these customers are losing $10-15K to get out from under their mistakes. I wish that the manufacturers HAD to live up to strict quality standards to get that RVIA tag on their rigs, it could change the way they are doing business today.
We choose to sell only quality RV’s. We have a great reputation because of it. Yes I educate my customers on the differences in construction. Because of that I have happy campers for customers that return again and again. I beleive I have a partner in Carriage. They take care of their dealers and they go out of their way to take care of their customers. Their warranty says it all.
I just did a walk through with a customer buying a new rig Saturday. He was trading a 2006 Everest. This was his first rig purchased from our dealership. After our walkthrough - this customer said in the 8 trailers he has purchased over the years, this was the first time he was shown how to use everything. He said the salesperson who showed him the Everest couldn’t even show him how to turn on the furnace. That to me is unacceptable. Anyone who is putting their face in front the customers should be fully trained. Half of the warranty issues with rigs could be avoided just is proper orientation with customers. We all need to invest in the future of this industry!
December 19th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
It comes down to the cost of quality. If a manufacturer can’t show the benefit of increased quality costs, then the quality suffers. Every consumer claims that quality is important to them, but they’ll go for low cost 90% of the time. Why? Because nobody has taken the time to sell them on the benefits of higher quality. And the nobody can do that better than the manufacturer. Somehow, Airstream manages to sell trailers that are 3 or 4 times the cost of a comparable unit of lower quality. If the company, whether it be OEM or aftermarket, takes the time and effort to educate the consumer, the sales will come. I think it’s unfair to grade the dealer for following the path of least resistance. Getting an A+ doesn’t mean much when the real estate sign goes up.
December 19th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Greg,
I am a Certified Master RV Tech and run a mobile RV Service, working on any type of RV on the road. The bulk of my calls are for the big diesel pushers and larger 5th wheels. I have seen horrendous gaps in quality control on some supposed ‘high-end’ units.
Whether the problems were neglected at the factory final inspection and pushed out the door to the dealers, were ‘designed in’ to cut costs, or simply shoved aside by the delivering dealer really makes no difference for the consumer. They see the low quality and want it rectified by someone, stating that ‘I expected more after spending this kind of money’.
It leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the consumer for both the manufacturer and the dealer. Quality DOES sell if it’s presented properly to the customer. This path is one that should be followed to avoid residing in the RV quality basement by the folks in the delivery chain.
Lew Farber
Master Tech RV Service
December 19th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
I believe one of the challenges in the RV market are the large manufacturers trying to be all things to all people. Our background is in the marine market which is a bit different. To your point of they all look the same after a while….If you are looking at a 30′ RV, they are all pretty much the same and within a fairly narrow price range. The mantra of the manufacturer is “more for less”. If you are looking at a 30′ boat, you could spend $60,000 or you can spend $300,000. The customer then selects the price/quality relationship that suits his/her needs and tastes. In this respect, quality is not a commodity, where everyone is looked at the same. In the pursuit of repetitious volume, and marketing to the masses, much of the RV industry has defined itself as a price driven seller of commodities.
December 19th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
I must say that I STRONGLY disagree with the sales manager of that manufacturer, I believe that more and more of the top performing dealers ARE rewarding manufacturers for building quality. As a dealer for 4 of the top quality lines made, I can honestly say that we do not sell on price alone and it can be done. I think that this sales manager is just frustrated becuase his company hasn’t figured out how to sell on quality like some of the others. There are a few and more all the time who have figured out that it can be done. They can build a quality product, it will cost more, but it can and will be sold!
We have kicked more than one manufacturer to the curb for poor quality and even worse, for not standing behind us or the product and we aren’t afraid to do it again if any of our current manufacturers slip! I truly believe that as we as dealers grow, become more professional and adapt to the times, we will weed out those who only care about selling junk at a cheap price. That practice will only sustain us as well as the manufacturers for so long before it blows up.
I think that instead of crying about how the dealers don’t want to sell our product if we make it with too much quality, these manufacturers need to concentrate on finding ways to build that quality, at a REASONABLE price, back up the dealers and like Sean said, most importantly, EDUCATE THE RETAIL BUYING PUBLIC about why their’s is so much better than the competition….that’s a step in the right direction.
December 19th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
One word perhaps sums it up best: Sunline.
(Quality products + great customer service) - high cost = out of business.
December 19th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
I agree with Sean. The only marketing it seems that the manufacturers do, it to present owners in magazines like MotorHome & Trailer Life, etc., or in the Go RVing program. When was the last time you saw a Fleetwood ad on TV…a National RV ad in the newspaper…or Forest River ad on the radio…or Coachmen ad in People Magazine, etc. The automobile manufacturers had an advertising cost on every vehicle’s invoice, but their advertising is a direct campaign to the actual customer, not a general lifestyle ad campaign. Don’t get me wrong, I think the Go RVing program is great on selling the lifestyle, but it doesn’t and isn’t designed to sell a specific product.
December 19th, 2006 at 12:21 pm
I feel like I am beating a dead horse, or at least a dying one. The world is changing and RV manufacturers want to continue to push responsibility for sales growth onto the dealers.
Dealers operate at the selling level of the entire process. Manufacturers should be operating at the marketing level. Marketing includes differentiating the product line in the market and educating the consumers to the differences. However, this takes commitment and accountability at the manufacturer level.
Why is it that this sales manager seems to understand that quality costs more but can’t transfer that idea to the dealers? It’s due to the fact that the dealers aren’t the people that need that message. The CONSUMER needs to learn that message.
Manufacturers need to wake up and understand that the end user is the customer. The customer IS NOT the dealer. The dealer is a partner in the process and on the same level as the manufacturer.